Select a twin arc spray system
07-25-2008, 08:32 AM,
#1
Select a twin arc spray system
Dear colleagues,

From you experience, what is the best wire arc spray systems available on the market? What system givs the best compromise between coating quality, wide of applications (ability to spray efficiently most materials), easy to handle, some spray process control (feed-back loop if possible) and process stability (push-pull)?
I saw different systems with push-pull, easy to handle and even some with feed-back loop incorporated in the spray gun to adjust the parameters. One of the systems also permitted to save the process parameters sheet in the computer memory, fitted with a touch screen. So, what is your opinion about all these systems? Which one would you select? How is the quality of the service and the cost of spare parts?

Best regards,
Florin
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07-25-2008, 11:32 AM,
#2
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Dear Florin,

A lot depends on your application. Anti-corrosion or engineering, how long do you want your cable length, how quick you want to put the coating down, hand held or machine mount etc.

The only experience I have had with a arc systerm with process control is Praxair's CoArc system which is able to read gun head pressure and voltage at the gun and not at the power supply or control console among other things.

I know KLM use this system and are busy testing a ew hand held gun running from the same console and power supply. But I think the gun is sometime off.

Best Regards,
Adam
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07-25-2008, 12:09 PM,
#3
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
The 'best' arc spray system is impossible to define without knowledge of the application. It is also very subjective - some people like one system, others like another. Pull systems for example tend to be heavier and better suited to machine mounting. Push systems are normally lighter in the hand but are at times (if you need to move the pistol around a lot because you are spraying a complex shape), less stable than pull because the last place that the wire was gripped could be 5m before the pistol, allowing for movement of the wires in the conduits. Both push systems and pull systems are limited in the length of wire drive, so push/pull systems are good if access is an issue.

Then you may consider the spray rates and flexibility of the systems. For anti-corrosion, larger areas are often sprayed with larger capacity systems (circa 600-700A). However, smaller systems are normally more flexible and with some smart working practices and depending on the geometry of the job, you can acheive the same work rate (or better) with smaller systems (say 350A) that are more flexible and easy to use. This is because with a longer supplies package, you may have to stop less to move wire etc. Just a simple example. Also, with higher spray rates, you can have less control over coating thickness and operators can easily spray too thick a coating, making the job more expensive as material is wasted.

In my opinion, feedback and data storage from arc systems is a very niche requirement. As Adam mentioned, it is being trialled in the aerospace industry but a lot of other users would not require such information. In general terms, I would aim to minimise the complexity of the system where possible.

I obviously have a bias towards Metallisation arcspray systems (as this is who I work for) but we do have a complete range of systems suitable for engineering and anti-corrosion coatings, hand and automatic spraying applications. It's great that you also consider quality of service and support which is very important. Please feel free to contact us for a chat about your requirements.
Stuart Milton
Metallisation Ltd
https://www.metallisation.com
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07-25-2008, 05:26 PM,
#4
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Hi Florin

I must agree with the good replies from Adam and Stuart. I don't think there is a "best wire arc spray systems available on the market" it's a bit like saying what is the "best car on the market". Very dependent on what you want from it. A do everything model, usual is a compromise and usually can not be expected to do as well as a dedicated model say for fast speed or whatever.
Reply
07-27-2008, 08:51 PM,
#5
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
i have devised a very simple system which can be used to spray any material at a ditsance of 60 meters with very simple comtrols and operator friendly. This can be used to spray materail in comfined spaces also.
if u want further details pl send me mail at vijaydeeshin@gmail.com
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07-29-2008, 01:24 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-30-2012, 01:09 AM by LEN WOOD.)
#6
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Hello Florin,

Having used just about every different brand and configuration of arc spray system and commenting from an independent non-commercial position I feel qualified to offer my opinion.

The American machines are not so hot in terms of being used as hand spray machines. The better of the American systems have either a pneumatic or electric ‘pull’ motor on the gun which makes them heavy and cumbersome. While they have been put to good use mounted on a robot or traverse unit they are not great for manual use. Consider also that Sulzers contender the ‘Smart Arc’ weighs in at 6.3kg.

I have heard owners comment that the Tafa 9000 series is too fragile for manual spraying.

The wire feeder to gun reach of these other systems is only 3 or 4 metres at best and this is an issue with access, maneuverability, larger work-piece processing and proximal positioning.

Other system spray patterns are relatively small which means that it takes longer to cover/build-up an area and often there are coating misses with intricate or complex surfaced work-pieces. Even higher quality/denser coatings can be achieved by adding jet concentrator hardware.

While there are plenty of Contemporary ‘whistle and bell’ systems that would seem to make different coating applications idiot-proof with menu memory and parameter stabilizing feedback mechanisms. I believe that with an already simple to use process that has few variables these additions be over-the-top. They are also the electronic complexities that fail.

Glen
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07-29-2008, 02:51 PM,
#7
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
From the American side I would look into Thermach/FST 400 series twas.

(links dead)
Reply
07-31-2008, 03:50 PM,
#8
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
adam wintle Wrote:Dear Florin,

A lot depends on your application. Anti-corrosion or engineering, how long do you want your cable length, how quick you want to put the coating down, hand held or machine mount etc.

The only experience I have had with a arc systerm with process control is Praxair's CoArc system which is able to read gun head pressure and voltage at the gun and not at the power supply or control console among other things.

I know KLM use this system and are busy testing a ew hand held gun running from the same console and power supply. But I think the gun is sometime off.

Best Regards,
Adam

Hello Adam,

Thanks for the information. I know KLM is using such system, I saw their presentation. It is easy to use.
Reply
07-31-2008, 03:51 PM,
#9
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Intel55 Wrote:From the American side I would look into Thermach/FST 400 series twas.

(links dead)

OK, thanks a lot! Do you use these systems?

Best regards,
Florin
Reply
07-31-2008, 04:03 PM,
#10
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
GlenB Wrote:Hello Florin,
Having used just about every different brand and configuration of arc spray system and commenting from an independent non-commercial position I feel qualified to offer my opinion. I am assuming that you want to spray primarily 1.6mm Engineering wires therefore I would highly recommend a Metallisation system. The Arc140 (with your choice of power pack the S350 is great) - robust, reliable, versatile, economical, high DE and easy to get great results from.

The American machines are so hot in terms of being used as hand spray machines. The better of the American systems have either a pneumatic or electric pull motor on the gun which makes them heavy and cumbersome. While they have been put to good use mounted on a robot or traverse unit they are not great for manual use. Consider also that Sulzers contender the 'Smart Arc' weighs in at 6.3kg compare this to Metallisations Arc140 at 2.3kg!

I have heard owners comment that the Tafa 9000 series is too fragile for manual spraying.

The wire feeder to gun reach of these other systems is only 3 or 4 metres at best and this is an issue with access, maneuverability, larger work-piece processing and proximal positioning.

Other system spray patterns are relatively small which means that it takes longer to cover/build-up an area and often there are coating misses with intricate or complex surfaced work-pieces. Even higher quality/denser coatings can be achieved by adding Metallisation's Arcbeam concentrator. They also offer add-on extensions in up to and in excess of 1.5metres for ID spraying.

While there are plenty of Contemporary 'whistle and bell' systems that would seem to make different coating applications idiot-proof with menu memory and parameter stabilizing feedback mechanisms. I believe that with an already simple to use process that has few variables these additions be over-the-top. They are also the electronic complexities that fail.

Glen

Hallo Glen,

Thank you for your answer and advice! What system you use now for arc spraying? I saw a presentation of KLM that is using a small spray system from Praxair with closed-loop control and I think was a push-pull system. They used such system because using the closed-loop system gives better stability in the particle parameters (speed, temperature) over the time and they can document the spray parameters for their customers. The advantage of push-pull is in more stable wire feeding in different spray positions when the wire cables are bended. What is your experience?

Best regards,
Florin
Reply
07-31-2008, 05:06 PM,
#11
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Stuart Milton Wrote:The 'best' arc spray system is impossible to define without knowledge of the application. It is also very subjective - some people like one system, others like another. Pull systems for example tend to be heavier and better suited to machine mounting. Push systems are normally lighter in the hand but are at times (if you need to move the pistol around a lot because you are spraying a complex shape), less stable than pull because the last place that the wire was gripped could be 5m before the pistol, allowing for movement of the wires in the conduits. Both push systems and pull systems are limited in the length of wire drive, so push/pull systems are good if access is an issue.

Then you may consider the spray rates and flexibility of the systems. For anti-corrosion, larger areas are often sprayed with larger capacity systems (circa 600-700A). However, smaller systems are normally more flexible and with some smart working practices and depending on the geometry of the job, you can acheive the same work rate (or better) with smaller systems (say 350A) that are more flexible and easy to use. This is because with a longer supplies package, you may have to stop less to move wire etc. Just a simple example. Also, with higher spray rates, you can have less control over coating thickness and operators can easily spray too thick a coating, making the job more expensive as material is wasted.

In my opinion, feedback and data storage from arc systems is a very niche requirement. As Adam mentioned, it is being trialled in the aerospace industry but a lot of other users would not require such information. In general terms, I would aim to minimise the complexity of the system where possible.

I obviously have a bias towards Metallisation arcspray systems (as this is who I work for) but we do have a complete range of systems suitable for engineering and anti-corrosion coatings, hand and automatic spraying applications. It's great that you also consider quality of service and support which is very important. Please feel free to contact us for a chat about your requirements.

Hello Stuart,

Thanks for your detailed and useful message.

Best regards,
Florin
Reply
07-31-2008, 05:08 PM,
#12
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Gordon Wrote:Hi Florin

I must agree with the good replies from Adam and Stuart. I don't think there is a "best wire arc spray systems available on the market" it's a bit like saying what is the "best car on the market". Very dependent on what you want from it. A do everything model, usual is a compromise and usually can not be expected to do as well as a dedicated model say for fast speed or whatever.

Hello Gordon,

Thanks for your message.

Best regards,
Florin
Reply
08-02-2008, 05:26 AM,
#13
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Florin Wrote:Dear colleagues,

From you experience, what is the best wire arc spray systems available on the market? What system givs the best compromise between coating quality, wide of applications (ability to spray efficiently most materials), easy to handle, some spray process control (feed-back loop if possible) and process stability (push-pull)?
I saw different systems with push-pull, easy to handle and even some with feed-back loop incorporated in the spray gun to adjust the parameters. One of the systems also permitted to save the process parameters sheet in the computer memory, fitted with a touch screen. So, what is your opinion about all these systems? Which one would you select? How is the quality of the service and the cost of spare parts?

Best regards,
Florin
Reply
08-02-2008, 05:29 AM,
#14
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Hi Florin.
Kindly checkout (links dead)
Rgds,
HK Leong
Reply
08-04-2008, 12:58 PM, (This post was last modified: 03-30-2012, 01:13 AM by LEN WOOD.)
#15
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Hi Florin,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have an S350/Arc140 and a Tafa 8830. We seldom use the latter as it is basically the lesser system and will not spray most materials as well. The only advantage of the Tafa is the quad MIG feeder - no need to swap those reels around when using bond coats, etc!

I realise that if you are applying top-niche coatings then repetition and parameter records are important. However the most important part is the actual deposited coating.

Thermion as an engineering arc spray system? - most coatings look more like builders render and the guns don't look that different either!

Glen
Reply
08-04-2008, 03:10 PM,
#16
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
GlenB Wrote:Hi Florin,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ERRATA first:
The American machines are NOT so hot in terms of being used as hand spray machines.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have an S350/Arc140 and a Tafa 8830. We seldom use the latter as it is basically the lesser system and will not spray most materials as well. The only advantage of the Tafa is the quad MIG feeder - no need to swap those reels around when using bond coats, etc! I'm sure Metallisation must make these now.

I think it should be mentioned here that the Tafa 8830 (and its ilk) is a blatant copy of Metallisation's 375 gun. So we can't really wag that finger at the Indians or the Chinese can we Uncle Sam?

Glen

Actually, here in the USA, Thermach/FST arc spay systems have a good reputation in hand held spraying. Besides being very robust, the gun head only weighs about 2.5# taking less of a toll on the operator.
Reply
08-04-2008, 08:40 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-13-2009, 10:07 PM by plasmajet1990.)
#17
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Florin Wrote:Dear colleagues,

From you experience, what is the best wire arc spray systems available on the market? What system givs the best compromise between coating quality, wide of applications (ability to spray efficiently most materials), easy to handle, some spray process control (feed-back loop if possible) and process stability (push-pull)?
I saw different systems with push-pull, easy to handle and even some with feed-back loop incorporated in the spray gun to adjust the parameters. One of the systems also permitted to save the process parameters sheet in the computer memory, fitted with a touch screen. So, what is your opinion about all these systems? Which one would you select? How is the quality of the service and the cost of spare parts?

Best regards,
Florin

Hi Florin,

(links dead)

this is very good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qO2qcpu7cM

Kind regards,
Ion
Reply
08-05-2008, 04:39 PM,
#18
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Hi All

Quote:Hi Florin,

(links dead)

this is very good (https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5qO2qcpu7cM)

Kind regards,
Ion

A hybrid HVAF/Arc spray system. I would like to try that out. No doubt excellent/best quality coatings, but doubt it fits the other criteria Happy0193
Reply
11-13-2009, 03:16 PM, (This post was last modified: 11-13-2009, 03:18 PM by djewell.)
#19
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
(08-05-2008, 04:39 PM)Gordon Wrote: A hybrid HVAF/Arc spray system. I would like to try that out. No doubt excellent/best quality coatings, but doubt it fits the other criteria Happy0193

Actually, the HVAF-ARC gun only weighs 2.8 kg, so it is light enough for an operator to use without becoming fatigued. The coatings produced by the HVAF-ARC gun are much denser than their twin wire arc counterparts, and the structure is much finer. The particles fly in a reduced oxygen environment, so they only form very thin oxide layers, allowing them to bond very well. Its electric drive system is powerful enough to easily pull wires through 6 m conduits.


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01-28-2010, 03:55 AM,
#20
RE: Select a twin arc spray system
Hi Florin,
I know this is an old post but I just joined this forum.
As stated in other replies, "Best" is hard to determine with all the applications and individual needs to take into consideration.
I personally like the OSU Arc Equipment. Starting price may be higher than some, depending on your requirements, but i have found the equipment to perform excellent and require very little to maintain. OSU Maschinenbau was acquired by Sulzer Metco several years back.
Hope this helps
Reply




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