"Old Masters" of Babbitt and Babbitting

[Viking]

Greetings!
For now I need to just keep to a screen name.
I appreciate being allowed to join up.
I'm am not an engineer, but have a heavy R&D background

Heavy machining has payed my bills since plastic-injection mold-building
started sliding down-hill in midwest US around 2002.
Currantly I have been hired to help a manufactuter of
medium to large replacement Babbit bearings start doing
larger bearings. This company has lost most of it's Old-Skill
in the babbitt room, and the replacements have been guessing
their way along as nearly as I can tell.
So many bugs in the petri-dish now they are scratching their heads
as to why so many bearings are having bonding issues.

I have formed several conclusions, and been able to advance
and back-up a few, but I end up drawning unwelcome attention
in several directions, and now upper management.
I got my intro to Babbit a few years back employed by the ghost
of Allis Chalmers ( ReGENco). I'm hooked, I love both the science
of Babbitt and of (? Hydro-static and Hydro-dynamic lift).
I appolgise for my ignorance about proper terms on the later.
Also for my spelling.

I hope to be able to gain some sound factual knowledge here,
or at least meet a few folks who can point me to some "Old Masters"
of Babbitt and Babbitting. THIS because my researching locally
has turned up other struggling companies and indications from
customers that loss of Babbitting skills may be unfortunately common.

I don't expect to be as much a contributor as a collector of value
on this forum, but would be happy to be involved if any thought
a middle-aged seasoned machinst / tool-maker might be able to
provide some good input.

Thanks You
Sincerely
Viking

PS;
and of course I closed out the wrong tab,
and plopped my intro into the wrong sub-forum.
It's moved now, this one could be removed.
I don't seem to have delete option.

[Gordon]

Hi Viking

to the Surface Engineering Forum.

Actually, I think Babbitt and Babbitting has much to do with surface engineering , so I will move this thread and if you don't mind will edit subject title to make it easier to search and find.

Hopefully, we will get some discussion going, particularly from the "old masters" and those with knowledge on this subject.

In the mean time (if you have not already) try the "Search" and additionally "Search Archives" for "babbitt" or other relevant keywords "babbit" and "white metal".

[Viking]

Hi Viking

to the Surface Engineering Forum.

Actually, I think Babbitt and Babbitting has much to do with surface engineering , so I will move this thread and if you don't mind will edit subject title to make it easier to search and find.

Hopefully, we will get some discussion going, particularly from the "old masters" and those with knowledge on this subject.

In the mean time (if you have not already) try the "Search" and additionally "Search Archives" for "babbitt" or other relevant keywords "babbit" and "white metal".

Thanks;
Editing IS welcome!
Two weeks of intence "immertion" into the topic.
When I get my ducks all in a row, I'll report back and
share this stuff. Old saying holds water.
[When a job is full of problems and challenges......
It's ripe for lots-O learning].
Take Care
Phil

[Viking]

The upside is if I had hitched up with a "top-shelf" outfit
that just needed a machinist for heavy work;
I would have been doing just that.

This outfit has been allowing skill to retire,
and trying to replace it with "Process" for 2 decades.
Long detailed process sheets with endless detailed directions.
So easy any fool should be able to do it.
Trouble is the skill used to think on the job, or "on-your-feet".
Daily details and observations slowy slipped away.
Corners were cut (economy) ? or just plain cheap ?
Both I'll wager.

I have seen deaply into not so much Babbitting.
But Tinning as well.
I have been shown the "way" by four veterans
to tin and to hand puddle Babbit.
Each it's own flavor, BUT one man went all the way to the heart
of the matter. The nitty gritty needs to stay off the net
for the time being.
BUT.
==========================================
I now have a question that realy belongs on this forum.
The bond of tin to steel? Or to Iron?
I assert that a grooved or textured surface is not only
unnecessary, but counter effective.
I add to this that a surface produce by carbide insertable tooling
is NOT desirable. Carbide cutting tools burnish as well as cut.
AND have the appearance of a "good" finnish as in rms.
Even once dull.
I'm old enough to be High Speed Steel friendly.
A cut made with a sharp H.S. cutter is like pealing an apple.
The surface left behind is NOT shiney, but is a true high quallity
surface with regards to geometry and funtion.
When H.S cutters get dull you quit using them.

When Silver-soldering tool-steel collars to ground carbide punch-blanks
it is very a (fine ground carbide surface to smooth bored
surface in the steel).
The silver solder wicks in between and the head is forever more
immoveable and infact will be destroyed before the joint would ever fail.

This surely must be the case with tinning steel No?
A freshly cut (not burnished) steel surface........
CLEAN having been correctly preheated just to the point
that the tin crawls right onto the steel.
THIS must be best. We use a tin in powdered form
with supposedly just the right amount of flux in it.
One vet still hand brushes a very scant liquid flux
to the entire area to be tinned PRONTO.
He says this "keeps" the surface till you get to it.

His tinning is far better than the other's and infact
to my obsevations better than the dip-tank.
I will make some test parts to proove or debunk my asserion.

I am going to cut two identical faces and weld
coupling nuts on the backs. Hand tin both and
set up with a .060" gap. Then apply Babbitt and let it
"fill" and cool naturally.
Attach eye-bolts and see what it take to part the joint.

SO.
The bond (as in tinning or silver-solder).......
It's not welding, it's what, a happy mariage of molecules
of two metals that love each other? WHAT?
If it's done right, I say texturing is the wrong direction.
Thanks........
Waiting for education..... eagerly.
Viking

[Viking]

A search of the archives turned up a thread on bond strenght.
Spray-arc was being considered.

While I'm still trying to understand the priciples of "the bond"
at all, this reminds me of field-work questions about
how to apply Babbitt out of position. Or say right up to the joint
on a lower shell or even over-head.

In the 70's I thought I remembered a welder that used TIG
for babbitting. ( I think we just still called it all Heli-Arc back then).
But this is when we were all just nubes.
So I asked a friend that still works at the power-plant.
He verified it.
I did some basic attempts and had astounding controll!!
This was before any of the recent training.

TIG used to have to be on wheels starting at about 550 lbs.
And topping just under 1000 lbs.

Now you can tote top-O-the-line tig like a cary-on suit-case.
Bet some high bond-strength babbitting can be done in the field
with all you need in a tool-box.
Of couse some of the chemicals and solutions would need
to be contained properly. And a small argon tank would
need to be available.
Viking.

[djewell]

I have had some good success recently spraying babbitt with an HVAF gun. The bond strength is high, and the productivity rate is also high. Contact me off-line to discuss further.

[Viking]

I have had some good success recently spraying babbitt with an HVAF gun. The bond strength is high, and the productivity rate is also high. Contact me off-line to discuss further.

============================
Thanks ;
PM sent

[HK Leong]

Greetings!
For now I need to just keep to a screen name.
I appreciate being allowed to join up.
I'm am not an engineer, but have a heavy R&D background

Heavy machining has payed my bills since plastic-injection mold-building
started sliding down-hill in midwest US around 2002.
Currantly I have been hired to help a manufactuter of
medium to large replacement Babbit bearings start doing
larger bearings. This company has lost most of it's Old-Skill
in the babbitt room, and the replacements have been guessing
their way along as nearly as I can tell.
So many bugs in the petri-dish now they are scratching their heads
as to why so many bearings are having bonding issues.

I have formed several conclusions, and been able to advance
and back-up a few, but I end up drawning unwelcome attention
in several directions, and now upper management.
I got my intro to Babbit a few years back employed by the ghost
of Allis Chalmers ( ReGENco). I'm hooked, I love both the science
of Babbitt and of (? Hydro-static and Hydro-dynamic lift).
I appolgise for my ignorance about proper terms on the later.
Also for my spelling.

I hope to be able to gain some sound factual knowledge here,
or at least meet a few folks who can point me to some "Old Masters"
of Babbitt and Babbitting. THIS because my researching locally
has turned up other struggling companies and indications from
customers that loss of Babbitting skills may be unfortunately common.

I don't expect to be as much a contributor as a collector of value
on this forum, but would be happy to be involved if any thought
a middle-aged seasoned machinst / tool-maker might be able to
provide some good input.

Thanks You
Sincerely
Viking

PS;
and of course I closed out the wrong tab,
and plopped my intro into the wrong sub-forum.
It's moved now, this one could be removed.
I don't seem to have delete option.

[minh_8888]

Hi,
Please advise whether we can apply HVOF process to spray for Babbit. Which powder can be applied? We have a HVOF Termika -3.
Thanks,
N. H. Minh from Viet nam

[djewell]

Hi,
Please advise whether we can apply HVOF process to spray for Babbit. Which powder can be applied? We have a HVOF Termika -3.
Thanks,
N. H. Minh from Viet nam

I would not recommend applying babbit with HVOF. The fumes from the melted powder contain lead and will be very dangerous to the people around the spray area. HVAF is safer to use because the powder is not melted in the flame, and thus there are no fumes. There is still a lot of dust (overspray) to catch.

[kschewe]

I used to spray babbit with the metco 14e gun. It made a good job and it can be sprayed for cheap. Very dense coating with less then 1% porosity.
I would be curious to see if anyone has tried babbit with wire arc. I bet you would have a very high spray rate.

[Stephen Booth]

We used to spray much babbit via Arc Wire. Coatings were good, but Deposition Efficiency was pretty bad. I prefer Wire Flame, even with the lower spray Rates.