F4 gun with Metco 7M
10-10-2008, 09:32 PM,
#1
F4 gun with Metco 7M
Hello All,

Please is there anybody who could indicate the settings for a Metco 7MC working with a F4 gun?

Thanks,
Ion
Reply
10-11-2008, 04:07 PM,
#2
RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
Hi Ion

No experience with this particular set-up (apart from a Plasma Techik mini bore spray gun may moons ago), but know F4 gas flow parameters are in NLPM, while 7MC controller gas flow tubes use Metco flow meter units which don't directly read as any standard flow unit.

For primary and helium secondary gas flows you can use my calculators https://www.gordonengland.co.uk/conversion/pgcalc.htm, just put the F4 reading in the NLPM box at the required pressure (usually 100psi Ar, 50 psi N2) and read the resulting Metco flow meter reading on the far left.

Hydrogen secondary gas flow will be a bit tricky, 7MC has secondary flow meter with the flow adjuster mounted on the inlet side (for safety reasons), not the normal outlet side as with the primary gas tubes. Unfortunately, this makes the back pressure of the plasma side of the tube influence the tube reading. I have 2 calculators based on some practical set-ups using GH and GP Metco nozzles at various primary gas flows for 7MB/9MB guns. You can use these to get a rough idea (F4 may give quite different back pressure compared to 7MB), but I would use the voltage reading to confirm correctness.

Carrier gas flow may also need conversion, depending on the powder feeder you are using. If its an old metco feeder 3MP, 4Mp type, I think I have some old graphs for conversion knocking around somewhere, not sure on there accuracy, but maybe helpful. Give us a shout if needed and I will try and find them.

I would check cooling water flow through F4 to make sure this is adequate.

The old Metco and Plasma Technik seemed to go out of their way not to make the marriage of equipment easy. Not sure how Sulzer Metco views it now Happy0193

Hopefully, anybody that has done this particular mod will help with their experience and anything that I've missed.
Reply
10-11-2008, 04:55 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-11-2008, 04:57 PM by plasmajet1990.)
#3
RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
(10-11-2008, 04:07 PM)Gordon Wrote: Hi Ion

No experience with this particular set-up (apart from a Plasma Techik mini bore spray gun may moons ago), but know F4 gas flow parameters are in NLPM, while 7MC controller gas flow tubes use Metco flow meter units which don't directly read as any standard flow unit.

For primary and helium secondary gas flows you can use my calculators https://www.gordonengland.co.uk/conversion/pgcalc.htm, just put the F4 reading in the NLPM box at the required pressure (usually 100psi Ar, 50 psi N2) and read the resulting Metco flow meter reading on the far left.

Hydrogen secondary gas flow will be a bit tricky, 7MC has secondary flow meter with the flow adjuster mounted on the inlet side (for safety reasons), not the normal outlet side as with the primary gas tubes. Unfortunately, this makes the back pressure of the plasma side of the tube influence the tube reading. I have 2 calculators based on some practical set-ups using GH and GP Metco nozzles at various primary gas flows for 7MB/9MB guns. You can use these to get a rough idea (F4 may give quite different back pressure compared to 7MB), but I would use the voltage reading to confirm correctness.

Carrier gas flow may also need conversion, depending on the powder feeder you are using. If its an old metco feeder 3MP, 4Mp type, I think I have some old graphs for conversion knocking around somewhere, not sure on there accuracy, but maybe helpful. Give us a shout if needed and I will try and find them.

I would check cooling water flow through F4 to make sure this is adequate.

The old Metco and Plasma Technik seemed to go out of their way not to make the marriage of equipment easy. Not sure how Sulzer Metco views it now Happy0193

Hopefully, anybody that has done this particular mod will help with their experience and anything that I've missed.


RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
Hi Gordon,

Thank you for the answer.
My question was more for the ignition tension.
Do you know if the ignition tension for the Metco 7MB gun is also good for the Metco F4 gun?
The setting for the ignition tension is very important, for the life of the gun.
Certainly, for the conversions I use your calculators.

Regards,
Ion
Reply
10-11-2008, 06:54 PM,
#4
RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
Hi Ion

Quote:My question was more for the ignition tension.
Do you know if the ignition tension for the Metco 7MB gun is also good for the Metco F4 gun?
The setting for the ignition tension is very important, for the life of the gun.
Sorry, my knowledge in this area is not that good. I suspect ignition/start-up plasma gas flows may need changing for optimum ignition and ramp-up. Don't know about adjustments to high tension electronics if any, not an area I got too involved with.
Reply
10-12-2008, 08:26 PM,
#5
RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
(10-11-2008, 06:54 PM)Gordon Wrote: Hi Ion

Quote:My question was more for the ignition tension.
Do you know if the ignition tension for the Metco 7MB gun is also good for the Metco F4 gun?
The setting for the ignition tension is very important, for the life of the gun.
Sorry, my knowledge in this area is not that good. I suspect ignition/start-up plasma gas flows may need changing for optimum ignition and ramp-up. Don't know about adjustments to high tension electronics if any, not an area I got too involved with.

Hi Gordon

Thank you !

Ion
Reply
10-14-2008, 03:19 AM,
#6
RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
(10-12-2008, 08:26 PM)plasmajet1990 Wrote:
(10-11-2008, 06:54 PM)Gordon Wrote: Hi Ion

Quote:My question was more for the ignition tension.
Do you know if the ignition tension for the Metco 7MB gun is also good for the Metco F4 gun?
The setting for the ignition tension is very important, for the life of the gun.
Sorry, my knowledge in this area is not that good. I suspect ignition/start-up plasma gas flows may need changing for optimum ignition and ramp-up. Don't know about adjustments to high tension electronics if any, not an area I got too involved with.

Hi Mr. Gordon

Thank you !

Ion
Reply
10-14-2008, 10:53 AM,
#7
RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
Ion,

Just some thought on this..
Why not engage your local Sulzer Metco support for troubleshoot some of the equipment and process problem your have.
I mean sometimes it is the best and fastest way to engage OEM expertise and support when dealing with equipments.

All the best.
Reply
10-14-2008, 07:21 PM,
#8
RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
(10-14-2008, 10:53 AM)Alexangel1226 Wrote: Ion,

Just some thought on this..
Why not engage your local Sulzer Metco support for troubleshoot some of the equipment and process problem your have.
I mean sometimes it is the best and fastest way to engage OEM expertise and support when dealing with equipments.

All the best.

Hi Alex,

This is Sulzer Metco's answer :
"I never heard that a F4 or an F1 gun could be operated with a 7MC Plasma controller.
This is caused by several technical reasons, for sample the ignition of the gun and high risks to damage the guns during operations and have no parameters therefore. "


Regards,
Ion
Reply
10-15-2008, 04:04 AM,
#9
RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
Ion,

Not to pro-OEM per say but due to the complexity of integrating your F4 to the 7MC controller, esp OEM advice on potential HRO for such integration, I would advice you to take OEM advice, (though being a bit not too creative) but rather sad than sorry as anything goes wrong, it could damage the gun or other part of the system which could cost you badly.

From equipment OEM support stand point, if there is such mod. performed without OEM concurrence and 'blessing', your system warranty may be void. At the same time OEM may not render full support for any future potential damage at the controller or any part of the system which OEM could "suspect" due to such modification without OEM support & consent.

From process development stand point, since OEM support is at least, you may even have problem with a start-up parameter which you need to spend "effort" and "time" to develop the parameters. Effort and time here translates into cost $$$.

From quality process stand point, I am not sure how stringent your quality system in terms of equipment certification and calibration. A system is calibrated as a whole, controller, gun, gas management, hopper.etc...etc by OEM and the certified by spraying samples to achieve coating requirement as well as sufficing the repeatability & consistency in result. First challenge is if the OEM would calibrate for you? and 2nd maybe your certification process may be at stake.

Not so sure the intention of the the mod, but take into all this consideration, with production pressure, cost pressure, and esp. machine at high risk as advised by OEM, I will put a red light on this mod.

Just my personally comment.

Regards,
Alex
Reply
10-16-2008, 04:06 AM, (This post was last modified: 10-18-2008, 12:05 PM by plasmajet1990.)
#10
RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
(10-15-2008, 04:04 AM)Alexangel1226 Wrote: Ion,

Not to pro-OEM per say but due to the complexity of integrating your F4 to the 7MC controller, esp OEM advice on potential HRO for such integration, I would advice you to take OEM advice, (though being a bit not too creative) but rather sad than sorry as anything goes wrong, it could damage the gun or other part of the system which could cost you badly.

From equipment OEM support stand point, if there is such mod. performed without OEM concurrence and 'blessing', your system warranty may be void. At the same time OEM may not render full support for any future potential damage at the controller or any part of the system which OEM could "suspect" due to such modification without OEM support & consent.

From process development stand point, since OEM support is at least, you may even have problem with a start-up parameter which you need to spend "effort" and "time" to develop the parameters. Effort and time here translates into cost $$$.

From quality process stand point, I am not sure how stringent your quality system in terms of equipment certification and calibration. A system is calibrated as a whole, controller, gun, gas management, hopper.etc...etc by OEM and the certified by spraying samples to achieve coating requirement as well as sufficing the repeatability & consistency in result. First challenge is if the OEM would calibrate for you? and 2nd maybe your certification process may be at stake.

Not so sure the intention of the the mod, but take into all this consideration, with production pressure, cost pressure, and esp. machine at high risk as advised by OEM, I will put a red light on this mod.

Just my personally comment.

Regards,
Alex

Hi,

OEM=Original equipment manufacturer Question

Thanks,
Ion
Reply
10-19-2008, 10:20 AM, (This post was last modified: 10-19-2008, 10:23 AM by plasmajet1990.)
#11
RE: F4 gun with Metco 7M
(10-10-2008, 09:32 PM)plasmajet1990 Wrote: Hello All,

Please is there anybody who could indicate the settings for a Metco 7MC working with a F4 gun?

Thanks,
Ion


Hello All,
Tazsmili

I have received the settings from SM.
If you need them, send me an email.

Thanks,
Ion
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