Cost for a small coating shop

[Florin]

Do you have an idea how much it will cost to make a small coating shop with reasonable cost and at acceptable quality? The objective it would be to have a technical capacity to get orders but not to invest 1 million € or 0.5 million €.

How much it will be the minimum cost for a small coating shop with an acceptable technical capacity? Is it difficult to find customers? Please tell me from your experience. Is anybody interested to join in building a new coating shop.

I am coating engineer at a big company and I have experience in HVOF and APS, but the equipments we use are much more expensive. I don't know if something can be build with 100 000 -200 000 € (or dollars). Waiting for your answers. Thank you!

[Stephen Booth]

Hi Florin,

Greetings. Excellent questions, and one of my favorite subjects. Thermal
Spray for the last many years has chased IGT, Aviation, and Automotive OEM Production and Repair applications, and all but forgotten the normal industrial market for Repair and Maintenance, ie job shops.

I do not know what country you are operating in, but let assume it is UK. And let me assume you are going for the industrial market (not IGT or Aviation).

The equipment I would recommend would be:

FST HV 25 controller, with the PF 50 powder feeder, and the liquid fuel torch of FX5.

Arc Spray is also important for general repair, expect about USD 30,000 for a reasonable system.

The auxillary equipment of Dust Extraction, Rotating Devices, and even spray rooms can often be found second hand.

Most of the cost of the workshop actually comes from Machining and Diamond Grinding Equipment, which can be extremely costly. The larger the grinder, the bigger the parts, bigger parts more money.

I would target two types of jobs, 1) one off engineered jobs and emergency repairs 2) low volume repairs of 20 40 pieces.

One challenge in running a shop is finding good workers,.... training and retaining them. You do not want to give away all your skills to worker, then he becomes a competitor...

On top of this all you have normal challenges of running a business, especially a new start up.

One option is to find a machine shop, that has extra space and work out deal with them to run your business inside their facility, that would radically reduce your investment in machining, and increase market access.

One consideration, is to add PTA welding, with some cladding and overlays of Stellite and WC materials.

For customers, look to Oil Gas service contractors, or mining companies.

[Intel55]

A friend of mine, who runs a large job shop, recently bought an FST HV-50 mobile unit a JP5000 gun and powder feeder for around $115,000 I believe. So far they love it. It is mounted on a cart with casters.

[Florin]

Intel55 Wrote:A friend of mine, who runs a large job shop, recently bought an FST HV-50 mobile unit a JP5000 gun and powder feeder for around $115,000 I believe. So far they love it. It is mounted on a cart with casters.

Hello!

Thanks a lot for the information. Who are the customers, what industries?

Best regards,
Florin

[Florin]

Hello Stephen,

Thank you for your valuable information.

Best regards,
Florin

[Intel55]

They are all over the world. I am familiar with some in the USA, but I checked their website and they have customers all over. Here is a link with some of their references.

http://www.fst.nl/en/page00011.asp


They mainly compete against Sulzer, Praxair and sometimes Progressive. Alot of people are looking for better alternatives to Sulzer, as Sulzer is very pricey, arrogant and their service sucks. I hear that Sulzer is down to something like 7 field techs in the US versus 100 before.

[Stephen Booth]

My two cents, I 100% agree with Intel55 about Metco and indeed know FST to be a great alternative.

FST is flexible and can use what ever torch you want with their controllers.

[Florin]

Stephen Booth Wrote:My two cents, I 100% agree with Intel55 about Metco and indeed know FST to be a great alternative. FST is flexible and can use what ever torch you want with their controllers. And still I would recommend considering the DJ 2700 design with the FST controller, or event the top gun design, as they have much much lower cooling requirements, 18KW compared to something like 85 kw for the JP 5000 or Woka Star. Meaning you can run the DJ with Air Cooling or as Hybrid with water cooling, this is a great savings in energy, and investment. Coating quality is the same. Only limitation of the DJ design is Carbide Coating thickness is limited to about 300 micron.

Hello Stephen,

Thank you very much again for the answers. Are you interested to become partner - shareholder in a coating shop I want to open? Another solution is to receive a money share (percentage) from orders you may bring from customers. I know you have a lot of knowledge and probably you know a lot of customers. Think about it!

Best regards,
Florin

[Florin]

Thank you very much for the answer! FST, they really have a lot of customers. I understand that their controller can operate any (or most?) guns from competition. That's very good.

Intel55 Wrote:They are all over the world. I am familiar with some in the USA, but I checked their website and they have customers all over. Here is a link with some of their references.

http://www.fst.nl/en/page00011.asp


They mainly compete against Sulzer, Praxair and sometimes Progressive. Alot of people are looking for better alternatives to Sulzer, as Sulzer is very pricey, arrogant and their service sucks. I hear that Sulzer is down to something like 7 field techs in the US versus 100 before.

[Florin]

Hello Stephen,

What equipment do you recommend for PTA welding? I try to find an equipment able to coat holes of about 75 mm in diameter, but I did not find an adaptor for such a small diameter. Do you know something?

Best regards,
Florin

Stephen Booth Wrote:Hi Florin,
Greetings. Excellent questions, and one of my favorite subjects. Thermal
Spray for the last many years has chased IGT, Aviation, and Automotive OEM Production and Repair applications, and all but forgotten the normal industrial market for Repair and Maintenance, ie job shops.

I do not know what country you are operating in, but let assume it is UK. And let me assume you are going for the industrial market (not IGT or Aviation).

The equipment I would recommend would be:

Sulzer Metco DJ 2700 manual with the DJF flowmeter (USD 25,000), and powder feeder (USD 8500) from Thermac in the USA. With accessories and installation lets expect about USD 50,000. Water cooling can be city water with the DJ or 18kw water chiller.

Alternatively you can get a Mass Flow DJ 2700 with feeder from FST for about 80K USD.

In my experience, there are many more applications for HVOF than plasma. If you need Ceramic Coatings, then you might consider starting with the Rokide equipment, at about USD 25,000, and makes EXCELLENT wear resistant coatings of Chrome Oxide.

Arc Spray is also important for general repair, expect about USD 30,000 for a reasonable system.

The auxillary equipment of Dust Extraction, Rotating Devices, and even spray rooms can often be found second hand.

Most of the cost of the workshop actually comes from Machining and Diamond Grinding Equipment, which can be extremely costly. The larger the grinder, the bigger the parts, bigger parts more money.

I would target two types of jobs, 1) one off engineered jobs and emergency repairs 2) low volume repairs of 20 40 pieces.

One challenge in running a shop is finding good workers,.... training and retaining them. You do not want to give away all your skills to worker, then he becomes a competitor...

On top of this all you have normal challenges of running a business, especially a new start up.

One option is to find a machine shop, that has extra space and work out deal with them to run your business inside their facility, that would radically reduce your investment in machining, and increase market access.


BTW I have been running my own WS for 13 years in Asia, as well as distributor the Thermal Spray products. Reason for chosing the DJ torch is the high DE for the powder, and low water cooling requirements relative to the liquid fuel torches.

One consideration, is to add PTA welding, with some cladding and overlays of Stellite and WC materials.

For customers, look to Oil Gas service contractors, or mining companies.

[Stephen Booth]

I recommend Hettiger Brand from Deloro Stellite in Germany, they have some small diameter torches, and probably can get down to below 75 mm diameter. contact to Dr. Alex Pavlenko in Koblenz Germany, or pavlenko@gmx.net will send more information via PM

[jeffsays163]

Hi, Florin, Im Jeff from China, if my guess is correct, you are my old friend. I have read the messages of yours and Stephen's. I would say to solve the project within Euro200,000, a combanation consists of Sulzer Metco's DJ2700 (core) and Chinese made booth, dust collector and chiller (peripherals) would be the proposal. You can even invest a Chinese made Arc spray machine which just cost Euro5,000. Just buying core equipment, you cannot work in your country, peripherals and auxiliaries also cost a lot of money. Florin, running a coating job shop can be even more than that...I have a jobshop in China, you can sit in your country and get me some jobs from there so the business will start step by step. Stay in touch Florin: jeffsays163@hotmail.com

[hvofhamid]

hi every body
chop coating does not need only powder feeder and jam box
you have many materiel associated to the process;I mean
you need at least a room coating+robot+colding water group+kirosen+oxygen+gas +rotating device+dust extraction
the bill can be salt if you arn t prepared to all that

[hvofhamid]

jp 5000+ torch84000euros
dust extraction25000euros
coating room 20000euros
robot +rotating device40 000 euros
colding water groupe 30000euros
other tools10000euros
blasting machine 20000euros
ect ....................
the total will be exactlly as you know
and of course if you are qualifdied only you can enter the busness of coating and have customers,but that is not the problem ,with an experienced operator ,you can have all certifications

[djewell]

Florin,

I would suggest looking at HVAF and twin wire arc equipment for your start-up. The advantage being that you would not need to use water cooling for either gun. Both guns are air cooled. Also, Solid Spray Technologies sells a combustion arc spray system which allows you to spray in normal arc mode or with a high velocity combustion chamber to finely atomize the coating particles, giving a very high quality, dense coating.

[Florin]

Hallo!

Thank you for the answer. I read about the high velocity arc spraying from Solid Spray Technology. Do you use this system in your applications? I am curious to see how reliable this is. Waiting for your feed-back.

Best regards
Florin

(02-18-2009 06:15 PM)djewell Wrote:  Florin,

I would suggest looking at HVAF and twin wire arc equipment for your start-up. The advantage being that you would not need to use water cooling for either gun. Both guns are air cooled. Also, Solid Spray Technologies sells a combustion arc spray system which allows you to spray in normal arc mode or with a high velocity combustion chamber to finely atomize the coating particles, giving a very high quality, dense coating.

[djewell]

We have found the HVAF-ARC system to be very reliable. It is easy to use and does not consume a lot of spare parts. With it, you can apply soft, hard, and cored wires - almost anything you can imagine. The gun is light-weight and easy to use. A new user can start spraying good coatings very quickly.

[bernyesha21]

(02-19-2009 08:45 PM)djewell Wrote:  We have found the HVAF-ARC system to be very reliable. It is easy to use and does not consume a lot of spare parts. With it, you can apply soft, hard, and cored wires - almost anything you can imagine. The gun is light-weight and easy to use. A new user can start spraying good coatings very quickly.

I think the cost of small coating shop is not very expensive. Yeah, I agree with you regarding the system to be reliable it is easy to use. We could spray good coatings very quickly. The information that Stephen shared for us are very great and useful for everyone.

[Thomas]

(01-31-2008 06:01 PM)Intel55 Wrote:  A friend of mine, who runs a large job shop, recently bought an FST HV-50 mobile unit a JP5000 gun and powder feeder for around $115,000 I believe. So far they love it. It is mounted on a cart with casters.

the amount is very high

[Stephen Booth]

(10-13-2010 08:07 AM)Thomas Wrote:  

(01-31-2008 06:01 PM)Intel55 Wrote:  A friend of mine, who runs a large job shop, recently bought an FST HV-50 mobile unit a JP5000 gun and powder feeder for around $115,000 I believe. So far they love it. It is mounted on a cart with casters.

the amount is very high

Hi Thomas, why do you say the amount is very high? Compared to what? The market standard for most makers of quality HVOF with mass flow control is about this price range. For the flow tube equipment, also cheaper....